How successful have we really been in Iraq?
The following from The Telegraph today:
Iraqis put Shia alliance in the driving seat
And then there's the editorial:
Democracy in Iraq doesn’t mean unity
It's enough to make anyone think, isn't it?
©Mark Alexander
10 comments:
To think that so many American lives were lost for this!! The mere thought of it makes me want to vomit.
Actually, all that has happened in Iraq is that one tyranny has been exchanged for another. Alas, what folly! Mark's suggestion that we build an "iron veil" around the Middle East is about the only thing that makes any sense if we are serious about protecting the civilized world from destruction by barbarians.
I think that is a one-sided viewpoint. It is assuming that the Sunnis and Kurds will just lay down and die. I don't think that will happen. You should also take into consideration there is a sizeable group in Iran who are more than fed up with the current dictator and want him deposed, the sooner the better.
Iranian Military Plane Crash: Act of Sabotage?
I am tired of the MSM always looking for what is wrong instead of reporting about what is right with the situation in Iraq--and no, I did not support the start of this war. We owe it to the long-suffering Iraqi people to leave them with a chance of a real democracy.
People forget that forming a new government takes years and that progress is sometimes painfully slow.
Heather:
We owe it to the long-suffering Iraqi people to leave them with a chance of a real democracy.
I don't quite follow why we "owe" the "long-suffering Iraqi people democracy! "Owe"?
For a democracy to function properly, the electorate has to be well-educated, thoughtful, well-informed, and rational.
Illiteracy is high in the Middle East; so they are not as thoughtful as they might otherwise be. They are certainly not particularly well-informed, either, since Islamic countries are given to heavy censorship. Regarding raationality, they fall short on this score too. Their religion is conducive neither to rational behaviour nor rational thought.
In fact, their religion is the main barrier to our having success in bringing true democracy to them. As I have said any number of times, Islam recognizes no separation of politics and religion - the sine qua non of a functioning democracy, and it teaches its followers that all power rests with Allah, not with the people!
It seems to me that there is a fundamental inconsistency here.
So therefore, would you kindly explain to me/us why we owe it to them to bring democracy to them? Further, do you really think they want democracy? Isn't democracy fundamentally a Christian/Western method of government in their eyes? And even if we are successful in the short-term in bringing democracy to them, how long will it be before they use that democracy to vote for Shariah law?
Please explain.
Mark,
I didn't mean to upset you. I guess I overeacted to the newspaper articles. What I meant was that this war has caused much suffering to the Iraqi people as a whole. We don't owe them anything in the strict sense of the word.
However, because Bush decided to start this war, I believe we have a moral obligation to leave their country in a better state than we found it. I disagree with you that the majority of Iraqis will voluntarily chose Shirah law if given any kind of opportunity not to do so.
The situation in Iran is a case in point. They can "elect" a president who is a brutal dictator, but it doesn't mean a very large segment of their population want this despot as their leader.
I came across this paper, written in 2003--read the last few pages about Sharia and world values. He says many of the same things you do, but reaches a somewhat different conclusion. What do you think?
Prospects for Democracy in Islamic Countries
I know you are an expert in this area, so I will defer to your much greater knowledge. I agree with a lot of the points you made. Perhaps it's my optimistic (naive?) nature that won't let me see the truth as you do.
Freedom House is a respected organization. What do you think of the conclusions they've drawn in this study? Not all of the results portray a positive outcome as in Eygpt with the Muslim Brotherhood.
Muslim Democracy: A status report
Mark: Illiteracy is high in the Middle East; so they are not as thoughtful as they might otherwise be. They are certainly not particularly well-informed, either, since Islamic countries are given to heavy censorship.
Thus, they can be led like sheeple. But another alarming factor is that even the Western-educated Muslims hate the West with an obsessive passion. Many of those dancing in the streets on 9/11 were Western-educated Muslims. So, the idea of their coming to a Western nation and loving it so much that they change doesn't work as well as we Westerners would like to think it will.
Regarding raationality, they fall short on this score too. Their religion is conducive neither to rational behaviour nor rational thought.
Herein lies another serious problem. Many Muslim beliefs seem to me to be cultlike and superstitious. They resist the concept of logic as we understand it; therefore, reasoned discussions are out of the realm of possibility, and even considered a Western corruption. They also have a yearning for the Islamic utopia, better known as "the caliphate." And most don't have enough education to find out what a failure the caliphate was. Their leaders use the ignorance and superstition to advance the agenda, also known as Dar al-Islam.
I notice that the Islamist leaders don't hesitate to send jihadists to their deaths, but those same leaders save their own bacon as they duck and hide.
Heather:
Be sure of one thing: You didn't upset me at all! I enjoy the 'cut and thrust of debate'. Debate with you is a pleasure, not a source of anger!
But what is possible is not always inevitable. The fruits of democracy in terms of well-being may well have an appeal in Islamic countries. But do they have the skills needed to implement democracy, and are they willing to shift their values in the direction conducive to such skills? Much will depend on a demonstration effect in one country. (Source: Prospects for Democracy in Islamic Countries)
This is an interesting observation indeed! In a qualified way, I would agree with it. Yes, in theory it is possible; but how realistic is this hope, given the fact that there is much hostility to anything Western in the Islamic world (and democracy is seen as a Western invention), and how ready are the people to accept a Western political system? Moreover, as I have said in a previous post, there is something in Islam which is profoundly incompatible with democracy. First and foremost, there is no separation of politics and religion (which I have harped on about for some time now), and then there's the belief that all power rests with their almight - Allah.
Is it really a coincidence that no true democracy has reared its head in about 1400 years in the Islamic world, or is there some underlying problem here?
I believe it is a mistake indeed to think that just because we revere the democratic process, that Muslims do, too.
This is one case in which the saying, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, is not particularly apt or applicable.
AlwaysOnWatch:
"Many Muslim beliefs seem to me to be cultlike and superstitious. "
Aren't you being rather too generous here? "Seem to be"? Shouldn't that read: Many Muslim beliefs ARE cultlike and superstitious?
"They resist the concept of logic as we understand it; therefore, reasoned discussions are out of the realm of possibility..."
They certainly do!
"They also have a yearning for the Islamic utopia, better known as "the caliphate."
Yes. That is their ultimate goal! The West had better beware!
And most don't have enough education to find out what a failure the caliphate was.
That's true. But it is also irrelevant in a funny kind of way, because they are obsessed with the glory of their own past, despite the verity of it, or lack of it!
Mark,
You're right. I was too generous. Islamic beliefs are those of a cult.
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