SUNBATHING tourists in Bali and barely clad tribesmen in Papua are caught up in a cultural war between a minority of puritanical Indonesian Muslims and the country’s tolerant majority.Mark Alexander
The battle appears to be frivolous, involving, as it does, learned arguments over whether a navel is indecent, or a penis gourd, which guards the modesty of the Papuan male, constitutes nudity.
However, it is serious for dozens of people who have fallen victim to zealous prosecutors, police harassment and mob violence in a battle for the destiny of the world’s most populous Islamic nation. Bali battles the Muslims who want an Indonesian cover-up from The Sunday Times
Sunday, April 02, 2006
The big cover-up starts in Indonesia
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37 comments:
Will Nike come out with special beachwear?
Watch for the South Pacfic paradises to be chipped away.
Once again, I suppose that it never occurs to Muslims not to go to the beaches if they don't want to see something "offensive"? I, on the other hand, avoid nude beaches because I don't care to be a nudist. But I have a former neighbor who frequents nude beaches--doesn't bother me in the least.
I also took note of the last thre paragraphs of the article to which you linked. Revealing stuff (Pun intended).
Always:
It doesn't occur to them to avoid the places where they'll find "offensive" stuff because they are killjoys! I am not allowed to enjoy it, so why should you? That typifies their mentality. It's sick!
A religious high school teacher, Sumardi Tappaya, 60, is facing imprisonment after a complainant heard him “whistling” while performing prayers. Ardhi Husain, 50, who ran a prayer centre that employed faith to help the sick, has been sent to prison for five years for writing a book deemed “deviant” by the ever more vigilant Indonesian Council of Ulemas.
Its “deviance” lay in affirming, among other questionable doctrines, that non-Muslims could also enter paradise. The printer and publisher also received jail terms. But nobody was arrested after an irate crowd burnt down the prayer centre.
Everything I read about Islam makes me want to scream. Just who do these people think they are?
These are a few outrageous laws they are proposing--five years in prison for kissing in public, 10 years (and £30,000 fine) for exposing your midriff or thigh? They also want imprisionment for tight clothing?
Why is it that the leaders of the Western world don't seem to comprehend what is happening?
I wonder what would happen if they tried to pass such laws in New York or London--would they sit up and take notice then--or would they still blather on about the Religion of Peace?
Heather:
Everything I read about Islam makes me want to scream.
You and me both!
Just who do these people think they are?
Allah's chosen people.
These are a few outrageous laws they are proposing--five years in prison for kissing in public, 10 years (and £30,000 fine) for exposing your midriff or thigh? They also want imprisionment for tight clothing?
There will be many more!
Why is it that the leaders of the Western world don't seem to comprehend what is happening?
Because they don't want to. If they admitted what's going on, they'd be forced to deal with it. They are too cowardly for that!
I wonder what would happen if they tried to pass such laws in New York or London--would they sit up and take notice then--or would they still blather on about the Religion of Peace?
With present trends, I think the latter! Sad, isn't it?
PS: Happily, I sense no denial in you anymore, Heather! That makes me HAPPY!
I feel sorry for Indoneasia, It's seen as 'gone' to Islam by the general people, and no wonder. No one I know will go there anymore, we all used to go alot for holidays.
That porn bill as they call it is so harsh, people cant even paint nudes I don't think.
Personally I don't think it will make it at this rate.
WHIDFYT?:
It seems as if Indonesia is a lost cause! I wouldn't want to go to such a country for my 'hols'. Anyway, why spend all that money in a Muslim country when you can enrich an economy of infidels?
Let them have their darkness! I just wish our leaders would make a determined effort to keep the darkness from casting a shadow over the West.
Mark,
There are still 30 odd million Indonesian people living free of Islam there, thats what is so sad... also Aussie used to spend alot up there and even Malaysia (I remember muslim girls in tiny scarfs and 'unmodest' clothes on the backs of their b/f's motorbikes).
But to us here in Oz now... they look pretty evil, Bali where we used to go on 'hols'was meant to be Hindu and weve all been going there for 30 years.
Now of course, yes, it's dying under Islam, or Islams bad name and face.
WHIDFYT?:
Bali where we used to go on 'hols'was meant to be Hindu and weve all been going there for 30 years.
I wouldn't go near that place with a barge-pole at the moment, however beautiful it is. It would be asking for trouble. Fortunately, there are still plenty of equally good places to go.
Now of course, yes, it's dying under Islam, or Islams bad name and face.
Aren't Islam and its "bad name and face" one and the same thing?
My curiosity took me back to the article Mark cites. Here are just two tidbits that got my attention.
"The contest for the hearts and minds of more than 200m Indonesians is being closely watched by western nations, one reason for Tony Blair’s 24-hour stop here last week."
And, referring to the Puritanical bill Indonesian Muslims are trying to ram into law:
“This is an attempt by some people to import Arab culture to Indonesia,” said Yenny Wahid, a Muslim campaigner for women’s rights."
Blair goes over there and kisses Muslim derrieres. He conceded their basic principles, reaffirming that the Muslims are right and that all is left is to sort of beg for moderation.
Look for the consistent side to win in any contest. Muslims have been winning because they have been consistent as well as insistent. Of course they are trying to establish Arab culture in Indonesia. That is the Islamic gold standard and part of the aspiration of Muslims throughout the ummah.
When in h__l are people going to realize that you cannot compromise, not even once, with Islam and its advocates? And you have to get Islam out of your country as quickly as possible. No one would have any trouble seeing this were we talking about Nazism.
Mark, I think you are right. Indonesia may be lost. If it is to find itself, only Indonesians can do it. We have a full time job seeing if we can save the West, or at least our respective nations, from being donated to the Muslims by our "leadership," such as it is.
PS
That was Malaysia about 15 years ago, I saw like that, up in it's islands.
George Mason (PBUH):
(By the way: I love the PBUH bit!)
Mark, I think you are right. Indonesia may be lost. If it is to find itself, only Indonesians can do it. We have a full time job seeing if we can save the West, or at least our respective nations, from being donated to the Muslims by our "leadership," such as it is.
This is what has worried me all along, George. The US & UK have spent so much money (and lives!) trying to democratize Islamic countries - and it isn't working, and it isn't going to work, either, for all the reasons I have cited so many times before - and all the while, we are in danger of losing our democracy at home.
I couldn't care less if Muslims live in democracies. What I care about is the preservation of our own democracy at home.
Allowing so many Muslims into the West has seriously endangered our democracy at home. And, given their breeding patterns, we shall all have a bleak future indeed.
Isn't it time to make a start of repatriation, at least of the illegal immigrants, of whom there are many?
Islam and democracy are totally and utterly IMMISCIBLE!
Mark and George,
Yeh I think it's a gonna as well, it's just so dam sad to see the 30 million other native Indonesians go down.
I think I read somewhere Bali was tryign to save its self by wanting to seperate from Indo. I hope it does as well, if it can make it still.
I don't think half the real Indonesians realise the trouble they are in.
And yeh I wish the world leaders would speak up.
Islam is beating it to death with terror.
WHIDFYT?:
I haven't been to Malaysia. I think it would be too dangerous at the moment.
Mark,
I wouldn't go there these days for quids either, nor back to Bali at the moment.
I "sway" between pro and anti attempts at democracy in Islamic land...
Personally I think... a bit of boundry resetting might save something. But whose got the power to help muslim free Indo do that?
WHIDFYT?:
I "sway" between pro and anti attempts at democracy in Islamic land...
I don't. I am firmly anti! It was ridiculous ever to experiment with it. There are many reasons, but here are some:
1. Islam understands no separation of mosque and state, no separation of the sacred from the secular.
2. In Islam, all power filters down from Allah to the people; in democracy, the converse is true: All power filters up from the people.
3. Democracy is viewed with suspicion in Islamic countries. It is viewed as a Western form of government. They hate all things Western.
These are just some important reasons why it is impossible to bring democracy to Muslim lands.
We have seen what has happened in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and in Palestine. They've all voted for Shari'ah law. So they use what little window of freedom they are given to vote for Islamic laws. So much for the experiment, that's what I say.
WHIDFYT?:
1. Islam understands no separation of mosque and state, no separation of the sacred from the secular.
I should have added that a separation of mosque and state is the sine qua non of democracy.
Further, I should have said that for democracy to function properly, it needs a well-educated, informed, and literate population. Muslim countries generally have the opposite: a poorly-educated, ill-informed, and illiterate population.
I can't remember where I heard it or who said it, but some moron said, not so long ago (a month?) that Indonesia is an example of successful and moderate Islam. I heard this outrageous statement on the news, for God's sake. Nobody challenged it as far as I heard.
I have a Christian homeschooler from Malaysia. He and his family are Christians. They've given up on visiting Malaysia with any frequency, despite the fact that elderly relatives are now dying of old age and pleading for the family to reunite from time to time. And when my student and his parents go back, they are scared to death--it's pitiful!
George Mason: Blair goes over there and kisses Muslim derrieres.
I'm so sick of Western dhimmitude!!! Our leaders are the biggest offenders, worse than academia. Why are they worse? Because our leaders have access to all the information and the intelligence. Still, they deny the problem even exists.
Always:
And when my student and his parents go back, they are scared to death--it's pitiful!
It sounds like it. I wouldn't wish to visit there at the moment.
They're fearful, Always, that's why. They haven't got the b*lls to confront the problem! Wimps all!
Mark
Yeh, it will take a very long time and cost us much, and it would be islam that would have to be crumbled with freedom.
What worries me is, not the people, but islam its self for the reasons you mention. Its insane and democracy is failing against it.
If we could pull out of islamic land and throw all the muslims back to their origins and totally seperate with a big wall.
I'd stop swaying.
But right now, they, or more so it, (islam) is here, and we're still buying oil.
If/when we can, we should, dump oil and any connections with Islamic lands and Saudi dollars, and just "monster" the entrenched islam here (our homelands) into submission or back out the door and build that wall.
It'll fester and grow again behind the wall, but we'd have time to re think, hopefully not relapse into being to easy going PC agian.
It's like a feaking cancer on both sides.
Deporting, legislating as harshly as we can and even civil warfare (here at home) short term is all we can do... for now.
I mean in a few years time we will probably all be at real war.
What drives me crazy is the laxity of the West, why not really show Palistine a democratic vote for terrorism is also vote for starvation etc.
Long term we need to kill Islam the religion I mean for the future of the world, not just us n our families
WHIDFYT?:
What drives me crazy is the laxity of the West, why not really show Palistine a democratic vote for terrorism is also vote for starvation etc.
Yes, it drives me crazy too! We should be tough on Palestine; but we won't be. We're too weak.
Long term we need to kill Islam the religion I mean for the future of the world, not just us n our families
In my book, The Dawning of a New Dark Age, I call for an Iron Veil between the Islamic lands and the free world. I think this is the only realistic solution. Have you read my book yet?
Mark,
I haven't read it yet but will, I'll put it on order for my b'day.
Yeah, I do sway on it all, like I said earlier about Indo,
Personally I think... a bit of boundry resetting might save something. But whose got the power to help muslim free Indo do that?
They haven't got the b*lls but neither have we to help them. The vote seems better than nothing.
If we can get a wall/iron curtain ir rest boundries, that will do me for now, as yeh it is realistic. It's the how we do it that i don't get yet...
Ill read your book though for clues.
I got an item up atm, which actully underneath its hatered of us, shows how scared islam is of freedom, beer, women and secualr society and Christians. It was published by the muslims in Australia pre 9/11.
Osama struck to soon, they weren't colonized enough in our lands but on the other hand he gave them the b*lls to go us.
Like I said the other day with that Iran hoax (i hope) Im ripe n ready for anything, I just dunno whats coming.
I'm always up and open for thought on it.
Mussolini said:
Didn't you hear about the NOW spokesperson claiming that the burqha is oddly "liberating"? Can you imagine?
It's difficult to imagine, I know. But all the feminists of the 70's, and later, have fallen strangely silent!
There is no outrage, no sin, no atrocity, no tragedy, no vileness that the western secularists will not excuse of Islam!
Yes, every wimp (man and woman) is making excuses for the 'religion of peace'. They'll be SORRY one day, when it's too late!
Our bookstores already ban books that CAIR doesn't like. How long before CAIR puts pressure on clothing outlets?
Is this a fact? Really? Isn't America supposed to be the 'land of the free'?
What is the difference? Really?
There isn't any.
What's worse is that the psychosis of the left is so deep and virulent that the blame for Islamic atrocities and bizarre violations of civil rights gets placed squarely on those who would fight against the depredations of islam!
Yes, it's crazy, isn't it?
Islam is winning by subversion.
Yes, and through the cravenness of our weak Western leaders.
They won't be coming over here on little boats to invade. They're already here and slowly working their way into the infrastructure.
When they succeed at getting some power sharing here with some voluntary sharia law, what will we do when the knock comes on the door demanding surrender - but it isn't a muslim? It will probably be a normal cop doing his job.
What a disturbing, nay frightening, thought!
At that point, gun in hand to adamantly refuse Islam's advances, I will become the criminal. The majority of us firebreathers will not, and we will go calmly to the slaughter.
You're right about that, too. At least unless there's a change of heart in the free world. And a change of the style of leadership.
Us westerners respect the law too much and it is through the law that the saracen invader is coming.
Yes, they're busy using our laws to their own advantage; and we, stupid as we are, are allowing this to happen.
We've lost already, guaranteed.
I so hope you're wrong on this one; but it is looking very much as though we have.
I blame GWB for much of this, because he failed - miserably - to place the blame on Islam after 9/11. Instead of 'letting Muslims off the hook' as he did, he should have placed them on the defensive. Instead of that, with the strategy Bush used, he placed us on the defensive, and them on the offensive! That was ridiculous!
Further, he was insane to try and make a distinction between radical Islam and Islam. There is no difference. The enemy - Islam - should have been identified from the start. Because this political ideology (clothed as it is in a deity) is at the heart of our problems. It is their ideology in its entirety which is incompatible with the freedom of the West.
Bush is no war leader. He is also no strategist.
Imagine if Churchill had tried to make a distinction between Nazis and ordinary Germans. And imagine then if he had said we're not at war with Germany, we are at war only with Nazis! How much sense would that have made? Further, imagine how that would have changed the outcome of the war, and, by extension, the destiny of the West!
WHIDFYT?:
Yeh, it will take a very long time and cost us much, and it would be islam that would have to be crumbled with freedom.
What worries me is, not the people, but islam its self for the reasons you mention. Its insane and democracy is failing against it.
Yes, it's failing because we have failed to identify the enemy, and we have failed to understand what is going on here. We also lack firm, decisive, leadership. Leaders who are willing to send in the military where and when necessary, and willing to kick people out of our countries where and when necessary, too. Leaders who will put a stop to all the mosque-building, Islamic-school building, and all the propagation centres that are springing up. Oh, and stop them from buying up our businesses, too!
We also needed (and still do need) our leaders to find other ways of fuelling our economies. Continuing to depend on oil is only putting money into the pockets of our enemies, and financing the war against us.
The West's whole strategy is up the gum tree!
If we could pull out of islamic land and throw all the muslims back to their origins and totally seperate with a big wall. I'd stop swaying.
But right now, they, or more so it, (islam) is here, and we're still buying oil.
Yes. And as I have just said, they are being more empowered with every passing day!
If/when we can, we should, dump oil and any connections with Islamic lands and Saudi dollars, and just "monster" the entrenched islam here (our homelands) into submission or back out the door and build that wall.
That's exactly what we should do!
It'll fester and grow again behind the wall, but we'd have time to re think, hopefully not relapse into being to easy going PC agian.
We've got into bed with snakes; so we're going to get bitten!
It's like a feaking cancer on both sides.
Islam is a cancer; and it metastasizes just like a cancer, too!
Deporting, legislating as harshly as we can and even civil warfare (here at home) short term is all we can do... for now.
Yes, but nobody has got the b*lls to deport them. That's the trouble!
I mean in a few years time we will probably all be at real war.
Yes, you're probably right. If, in fact, we are not already in it!
What drives me crazy is the laxity of the West, why not really show Palistine a democratic vote for terrorism is also vote for starvation etc.
The West, at the moment, is lax AND weak!
Long term we need to kill Islam the religion I mean for the future of the world, not just us n our families
Yes. We need to vanquish it; and drive it back to the desert sands, just where it belongs!
The many fingers of islam invading us on all levels, needs the same back from us, passive and agressive, from daily life to propaganda to legislation to financial control (aid in our homelands and theirs for a start) to warfare, from all walks of the west.
Yeh as for being in war, we are in a sense in it a new modern warfare, but yes the "real" stuff is still to come.
We were at war 60 years ago fighting all we could. Once it starts, we are/will be the stronger.
Islam has already shown all its cards, we have many yet to show.
An Armenian friend of mine taught me about Islamic pride. Any one have any insight on other Islamic weaknesses?
Mussolini:
Thanks for that link.
I was actually in the States when the furore about the cartoons broke. I was very, very disappointed that the newspapers there, and the MSM, with very, very few exceptions, refused to show the cartoons. The British press took the same decision. This was an outrage!
For all Europe's dhimmitude, at least several German French, Italian and Spanish newspapers took the decision to publish them. In my opinion, all the free press all over the free world should have colluded to publish them all on the same day, all in solidarity with one another. That way it would have made it much more difficult for the Muslims to sue a particular newpaper or TV channel. But they didn't. They were craven.
Do you know of any particular books which booksellers refuse to sell? Has it got that bad yet?
[Current policies are] Insane and self-destructive.
How right you are! It's very worrying.
... Terrible are the times, and fear the currency of our existence.
Yes indeed! Like you, I fear the currency of our existence, too.
WHIDFYT?:
Yeh as for being in war, we are in a sense in it a new modern warfare, but yes the "real" stuff is still to come.
"The real stuff" is indeed yet to come, as long as we have the b*lls to do what is necessary to vanquish this force for evil.
Once it starts, we are/will be the stronger.
Yes, because then everyone will know who the enemy really is; and people should then be able to unite behind the leaders.
Islam has already shown all its cards, we have many yet to show.
Yes, and we need the courage to show them. We have to show them who is boss!
An Armenian friend of mine taught me about Islamic pride. Any one have any insight on other Islamic weaknesses?
Yes, tied up with their pride, they hate to 'lose face'. We need to bare their faces for all the world to see! We need not give them any chance to save their faces. This is one thing that will be very painful for them.
If we don't deal with Iran, I will agree with you guys that were done.
But if we do, then it's on, then we will win. Even with the whining from the anti west, we have the planes and power.
On the saving face thing,
I wish I had that photo of Sadam in the hole when they found him.
Yeh, I'd like to know more about Islams fears and weaknesses.
One of our problems is we forget they have them, the cartoons showed some of it.
To understand more of this is something people like us can use on a daily basis.
WHIDFYT?:
They have their weaknesses alright. Have no fear of that! The problem is that the West is not willing to air them.
and use them
No, it's not willing to use them either.
Mussolini,
Didn't you hear about the NOW spokesperson claiming that the burqha is oddly "liberating"?
Before the Monicagate scandal I wouldn't have believed it. However, watching the feminists remain silent during that whole ordeal made me realize they have no integrity or consistency of thought. It is pretty disingenuous to call a burqha "liberating"
Us westerners respect the law too much and it is through the law that the saracen invader is coming. We've lost already, guaranteed.
I agree with Mark, I hope you are wrong about this. You seem to be aware of some things the rest of us may not know. Most people I know will not go down without a fight. I am not scared or intimidated by these people.
The people that worry me the most are the so-called liberals who have decided to take the side of any enemy of the US. Now, that makes me angry.
Heather:
... watching the feminists remain silent during that whole ordeal made me realize they have no integrity or consistency of thought.
Integrity? They're a pack of air-heads!
... Most people I know will not go down without a fight. I am not scared or intimidated by these people.
No! I'm not either. I shall fight to the bitter end!
"These people" don't intimidate me at all. Not at all! The people who intimidate me are the Bushes and Blairs of this world - the one's who don't have the b*lls to put up a fight. Therein lies the ruin of the West! Along with the craven behaviour of the liberal élite.
The people that worry me the most are the so-called liberals who have decided to take the side of any enemy of the US. Now, that makes me angry.
Yes! And the liberals, too! I'd put them all 'on a slow boat to China'!
Bld said:
Hi, Mark, ..Feminists should realise that all their hard-won freedoms will evaporate overnight if the shadow falls over the West.
Won't they just!
How many women will risk their very lives over their liberties?
Few more than none!
Do we think that the representatives of the womens branch of the jihad will give any choices as to how women will behave?
Certainly not!
few public stonings and a few beatings and even Germaine Greer will put her bra back on. (Underneath her Burkah, of course.)
Yes, she will certainly do that! She was brave against Christianity. She'll be 'melted butter' againt the jihadists. What have we heard her say?
Feminism versus Moslemism? No contest, I'm sad to say.
No contest at all!
Still the fashion industry will cope! We all remember the new fashions we have been promised a few weeks ago! Lovely. Mmmnn?
The fashion industry will cope all right. It will be 'Burqahs by Chanel', or some such luxurious label!
Or should I have said: Foulards par Chanel? That would have made the whole thing sound a lot more civilized, wouldn't it? (But not, alas, more enlightened!)
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